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29 April 2020 17:57![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
haptalaonSo I just run all this past my husband, and some interesting things came up:
1. "This is just like wanting the stability of monogamy but also the freedom of polyamory; with every decision something is gained and lost"
2. He suggested that Pagans were inherently the kind of people who wanted a freeform, individally-defined religion. Is this true? It's certainly true in practice. But is this only because we don't have any "show up on a Sunday" trads, or is this because the kinds of people drawn to something as alternative as magic will be alternative in other ways?
3. We agreed that pagans broadly just don't want/need a priesthood in quite the same way that other religions do; the reason we don't have fulltime clergy, the reason why Shauna feels like her teaching work isn't valued, is because it literally isn't. No one is feeling the lack of a fulltime clergy, so no one works to create one.
4. I talked about alternative models of faith that I admire - including Vodou in Haiti, which is a three-days of prep, four days of ritual, everyone pitches in sort of community. Husband said the idea of this was simply not present in pagan culture, and our role models are all inherently solitary.
5. "I want to be paid, but not in money: I want to be paid in the knowledge that I'm building something or contributing something to the community. Like a Sunday School teacher who volunteers, and is paid in the children who encounter Jesus. With a "consumerist" teaching model, my customers come to me and take, and then vanish again - I'm not building anything"
6. I pointed out that his mother - who is a member of a Christian cult - doesn't expect anyone to pay her to talk about Jesus, she does it for free. Apparently that's not true: she also *pays* the cult for the magazines she distributes, and additionally pays to attend courses from the cult on how to convert people better. This is messed up. But also strengthens my point that the reward of teaching faith is that you expand the number of the faithful, and that itself can be a motivator.
7. My husband says that if he was volunteering to teach or running a youtube channel, he wouldn't expect payment. But if someone asked him to talk at their shop or coven, then he would expect to be paid. That was his distinction.
8. I talked about how I was rethinking eclecicism/individuality in paganism. In contrast, I was looking at things like Vodou or the martial arts where people can recite their teacher's lineage back four generations. If you believe in the reality of what you're doing, then the concept of doing things correctly and recognising elders must have weight; rather than this "substitute everything with rosemary" approach, this "anyone can do magic anytime with a white candle and intention" approach. He had an alternative model of eclecicism, which is evolution: things which don't work are discarded, but things which do are hybridised and enhanced. He's a scientist, so he doesn't use the word evolution lightly - as a process of perfection away from the original towards something better.
9. He asked whether I'd be expecting my {hypothetical future students} not to deviate from what I was doing. I said that originally, no - I had a much stronger commitment to eclecticism/freedom. But nowadays, yes - I'm beginning to value the anchor of tradition as a useful part of a path, and also I think if I'm serious about the tangible reality of my work, then why would I encourage people to change it? I could definitely see myself embracing more ways to accomplish the same outcome, but not variable about what the outcome is, if that makes sense.
10. It's definitely nice to talk to someone who's committed to the freedom of Paganism for its own sake, not just because that's what happens organically - someone celebrating this as how it should be.
11. Apparently one of our friends is a literal hermit, as in, he lives in a cave on a heath. I didn't know this, and am super jealous.
12. Like most people, I dream of creating pagan land. But last time I talked about this with my man, we decided the way to really do it? Was to start a pagan pub. And that feels right. Self-sustaining, with odd occult trinkets thereabout, and a place for people to gather together, swap stories and make merry. Better even than a farm or academy, a pub seems to "fit" the pagan culture as-is, rather than an imaginary of what it could be.
1. "This is just like wanting the stability of monogamy but also the freedom of polyamory; with every decision something is gained and lost"
2. He suggested that Pagans were inherently the kind of people who wanted a freeform, individally-defined religion. Is this true? It's certainly true in practice. But is this only because we don't have any "show up on a Sunday" trads, or is this because the kinds of people drawn to something as alternative as magic will be alternative in other ways?
3. We agreed that pagans broadly just don't want/need a priesthood in quite the same way that other religions do; the reason we don't have fulltime clergy, the reason why Shauna feels like her teaching work isn't valued, is because it literally isn't. No one is feeling the lack of a fulltime clergy, so no one works to create one.
4. I talked about alternative models of faith that I admire - including Vodou in Haiti, which is a three-days of prep, four days of ritual, everyone pitches in sort of community. Husband said the idea of this was simply not present in pagan culture, and our role models are all inherently solitary.
5. "I want to be paid, but not in money: I want to be paid in the knowledge that I'm building something or contributing something to the community. Like a Sunday School teacher who volunteers, and is paid in the children who encounter Jesus. With a "consumerist" teaching model, my customers come to me and take, and then vanish again - I'm not building anything"
6. I pointed out that his mother - who is a member of a Christian cult - doesn't expect anyone to pay her to talk about Jesus, she does it for free. Apparently that's not true: she also *pays* the cult for the magazines she distributes, and additionally pays to attend courses from the cult on how to convert people better. This is messed up. But also strengthens my point that the reward of teaching faith is that you expand the number of the faithful, and that itself can be a motivator.
7. My husband says that if he was volunteering to teach or running a youtube channel, he wouldn't expect payment. But if someone asked him to talk at their shop or coven, then he would expect to be paid. That was his distinction.
8. I talked about how I was rethinking eclecicism/individuality in paganism. In contrast, I was looking at things like Vodou or the martial arts where people can recite their teacher's lineage back four generations. If you believe in the reality of what you're doing, then the concept of doing things correctly and recognising elders must have weight; rather than this "substitute everything with rosemary" approach, this "anyone can do magic anytime with a white candle and intention" approach. He had an alternative model of eclecicism, which is evolution: things which don't work are discarded, but things which do are hybridised and enhanced. He's a scientist, so he doesn't use the word evolution lightly - as a process of perfection away from the original towards something better.
9. He asked whether I'd be expecting my {hypothetical future students} not to deviate from what I was doing. I said that originally, no - I had a much stronger commitment to eclecticism/freedom. But nowadays, yes - I'm beginning to value the anchor of tradition as a useful part of a path, and also I think if I'm serious about the tangible reality of my work, then why would I encourage people to change it? I could definitely see myself embracing more ways to accomplish the same outcome, but not variable about what the outcome is, if that makes sense.
10. It's definitely nice to talk to someone who's committed to the freedom of Paganism for its own sake, not just because that's what happens organically - someone celebrating this as how it should be.
11. Apparently one of our friends is a literal hermit, as in, he lives in a cave on a heath. I didn't know this, and am super jealous.
12. Like most people, I dream of creating pagan land. But last time I talked about this with my man, we decided the way to really do it? Was to start a pagan pub. And that feels right. Self-sustaining, with odd occult trinkets thereabout, and a place for people to gather together, swap stories and make merry. Better even than a farm or academy, a pub seems to "fit" the pagan culture as-is, rather than an imaginary of what it could be.
