(no subject)

[haptalaon]

To end this on a more positive note: I have put out feelers to three local groups who are in my zone, and am at least going to dip my toes in this month. There's no harm in taking that initial step.

(Obvs, it's ridiculous to even think about *leading* community work when one has no experience of it at all, and when one thinks about it one
experiences a screaming sound deep in the gut.

The two instincts are clearly joined:

A) I can't accept religious authority due to the fear of it creating an unsafe hierarchical relationship

B) Therefore to participate in community means I have to run the community and be the ultimate religious authority of the group

C) Nothing else is safe.)

Comments

[alexseanchai]

♥

[alexseanchai]

Thing is, some hierarchical relationships are unsafe. Always will be. Nature of the beast. Or rather, human nature is, among other things, to abuse others, and hierarchy is a tool that is easily misused for abusive purposes.

(I will not argue that hierarchy is in itself unsafe. Nor that hierarchy is in itself healthy and necessary. I have sympathy for both viewpoints and haven't figured out where in the middle my actual beliefs are.)

So how (and I am more asking this of the origin of the two instincts you describe having than I am asking it of you yourself) do you propose to ensure the safety of the community you propose to lead, and the perceived safety of the community you propose to lead, when you are top of the hierarchy? That is, how will you prove that you are worth their trust—knowing that you are not the only one with these two instincts and especially knowing that religious hierarchy is easily abused? And also, how do you propose to continue to ensure the safety, both actual and perceived, of this community at such point as you are no longer able/willing to be top of its hierarchy?

[haptalaon]

Quick reply to say: I'm about to post some writings your questions sparked. THEY ARE HUGE. Please don't feel compelled to read them, engage with them, unless you'd like to :) Thank you for giving me some cool writing prompts.

Promise to reply to your comment properly asap x

[alexseanchai]

:D

[arche_apeiron]

Have you associated at all with the ADF?

[haptalaon]

I have heard of them, but not heard any feedback (positive or negative), or met people in the tradition. I'd love to read your perspective, if you'd like to flesh your thoughts on the ADF out x

[arche_apeiron]

Our local grove is one of the more robust ones due to the intense dedication and charisma of its leaders, so take my perspective with that in mind. Also take into consideration that I do not fit in with them.

I think it is a good group to get involved in if you enjoy organized religion. They are doing their best to provide their clergy with intense, consistent training. Most of their training focuses on knowledge of lore and liturgy, though it is definitely lacking in the pastoral department. They have no CPE or pastoral internship components to their training, and so one of the biggest complaints I have about them is that they are very weak in providing pastoral presence. They are very liturgy/ritual focused, and some have complained that, since the ADF often attracts nerds and geeks and introverts, they can come off as very insular and unwelcoming. No doubt this is different depending on which grove is in your area. My local grove is very stable, consistent, healthy, but still they struggle with coming off as too insular in person due, I think, mostly because of their general lack of social skills (they are very warm and welcoming on the internet, though).

But they are so large and so respecting of different indo-european "hearth cultures" that, as long as you have a hearth culture and a strong psychological or emotional need for personified, polytheistic deity, then you can find a home there. There are a lot of online groups, and, if you find the right person, help for your Dedicant path. You have to find the right person, though. The person who offered to help me simply never helped. I was left floundering and quickly became frustrated and quit. But if you get the right person, you can have a very good experience with it.

I wish there were an OBOD near me but the ADF is such a large presence in our Pagan community, I am guessing they felt no reason to sprout here.

[haptalaon]

Thank you for a long reply :) I might check them out - I do idiosyncratic hearth-ish stuff, and if it tends to be a place where geeky/social difficulties people cluster that is no bad thing. It will likely be a good fit for me.

Can I ask why your preference would be to work with OBOD?

[arche_apeiron]

Probably out of sheer curiosity, lol. I personally am not a huge fan of ADF ritual.