(no subject)

[haptalaon]

A major thing all the big traditions get wrong is, I think, the idea thst attaining a certain grade of magic qualifies you to teach, lead, or guide ritual. Teaching classes and mentoring individuals; running a group, both the loud charismatic stuff and the difficult, patient community-building; and crafting ritual experiences which are meaningful, educational, otherworldly, with the right mood for the occasion. These are all different, difficult skillsets, and being an experienced or advanced mage does not grant any special skills in those areas, alas.

I do get the fundamental idea that the senior mage is most likely to have things to teach - although this is less true nowadays, where traditional year and a day material is trivial to find on your own. And is more likely to have the respect and network of relationship to help him lead - although this is by no means guaranteed, because he's also had more time to make enemies. And maybe her spirit relationship truly are deeper, but it doesn't mean she's able to facilitate those relationships well for others.

A more deeper problem is that then, we don't have any "mysticism" paths or titles equivalent to something like High Priest, which recognises the seniority of a person but not as a teacher or leader. The only way we have of establishing ourselves as Wayfinders of our craft is...teaching, leading ritual, founding groups. We don't have equivalents to, say, a monk or a holy man or similar devotional specialists, who are recognised community wide but who are primarily solitary and reflective.

I really wish we could decouple the two. I've always thought that a term like "receptionist" should be applied to the group leader, rather than Queen of the Witches or The Man In Black or The High Priestess, a fancy name with prestige. Receptionists handle admin, book the hall, answer the telephone, reply to emails, contact participants, and cover when their bosses have failed to do their job. I think this is a very good description of the fundamentals of group-running, and a humble term like "receptionist"  ensures the right people apply for it

Comments

[jenett]

In my tradition, they were very explicit (partly because of people not doing this thing locally) that being a 1st degree is being responsible for your own practice, being a 2nd takes on responsibility, and being a 3rd (aka high priest/ess) means taking on some responsibility in the larger community.

That doesn't have to be leading a group, but you need to be identifying what yours is. (And at this point, I've had long stretches of non-group work, but being active sharing information online in multiple formats, and in creating spaces for people to come together and make connections (Pagan Pride day, Paganicon)

In that model, it's hard to have a 3rd degree focus that is a solitary reflective mystic (because if so, how are they interacting with the community?) but it's quite possible to have someone whose practice is often solitary, but who engages with others in various ways than leading ritual or teaching or actively running events of other kinds.

(On the other hand, we also tend toward "You're only an elder if other people agree you're an elder" so to some extent, the titles are only things that make sense in community context, and usually only in a pretty specific one.)

I'd also argue that while pieces of the year and a day material are trivial to find on your own, what I'm hearing a lot (from my own brand new Dedicants, and from other conversations in the past couple of years) is that there's definitely people out there who are at "I know where the information is, but I'm not sure how to connect this into a sustainable practice, with all its ups and downs" (which books sometimes talk about, but actual humans often talk about a lot better, or at least give you observable examples.) Or who want help with navigating specific pieces of it that the books and online sources don't talk much about (how to deal with adaptations, for example, or 'had this specific experience, need someone to help me talk through it')

[haptalaon]

I think it's really good to make that explicit, and an official part of the responsibilities of the degree.

At the same time, is there ever a problem with people wanting to progress to 3rd Deg because of what it represents or because it's rhe "best", regardless of their readiness? You and I both teach; have you not encountered this tendency for people who Want To Teach because it's a kind of authority, even though they either don't really have any information worth sharing, or no skill at teaching as a discipline?

I guess the purpose of the Solitary Mystic 3rd Degree would be a thing to give people who want to feel like they've accomplished something & want something to work towards, but who aren't ready for/can't do leadership work specifically. To celebrate their success and achievement and so on.

(I suppose someone who needs to be bribed with a title because they refuse to understand 3rd Deg has responsibilities they're not ready for - is a person one probably doesn't want to coven with anyway...it is kinda asshole behaviour, so you'd hope this person would have been filtered out far sooner)

(Still, I would worry about hurting the feelings of a long-estsblished member and friend who had a lot of skill and insight, and yet who would make a lousy leader. I'd want a structure with alternative titles, where I could make them Librarian or Chief of Bards or some other title reflecting their skill, and giving them the sense of success they so richly deserve. But not leadership.)

Hmmm I also think you're gesturing towards the idea of internal and external titles. Like, your degree structure refers to your role within your coven/group/circle *exclusively*; it's an internal title. Am I right?

I think a lot of people think of degrees like you would an actual degree, a universal accomplishment which could be then shown to people of a different group. Or put in your blog sidebar & look very impressive. If you define things like 2nd Deg as "takes on more responsibility within the group", then it defuses some of its power as an external-facing title. And this is maybe good in the context of what you're doing, as a tradition, because you broadly don't want to be training wheels and degree providers for people who then dash off?

[jenett]

It has not been a huge problem: within the direct tradition, we've had three third degrees so far (I'm the third.) Usually by the time people are six months after their first degree, they get a really clear idea of how much work is going on, and are really clear about whether or not they want to do that.

(We're also pretty clear on "Dedicant year is a time to focus on your own learning, there's a bunch of stuff going on that is not your job to worry about" and by the time people get into that, they usually realise there's a reason we say that.)

We also don't require someone to be a 3rd to teach - just that they can't pass on the full tradition, because there are parts of it they don't know.

During my own training, it was very common to have fairly new initiates (like a couple of months in) helping teach Seeker or Dedicant classes (which in that group came with extensive notes, so it was mostly working through the notes, and then answering questions, so we could be consistent on what was taught to everyone through Dedicant year.) And among the initiates, people would take on responsibility for teaching classes in rotation or sharing things to try out.

That was explicitly a teaching circle, so there was a certain amount of "The work of the group is heavily centered on teaching, so if you don't want to do any teaching, you need to do some additional work to figure out how you're contributing to what we do" - there are obviously a bunch of answers to that possible.

In my own coven, my brand new initiate will be coming to at least some classes and helping teach and share her own experiences (and once she's done that a few times, I will be seeing if she wants to be the primary person teaching a class - she's got some childcare limitations, so finding a combo of 'topic she has time and interest in prepping' and 'class we're sure she can be at' need to line up a bit more directly and in advance.)

Either way, I definitely know of people who wanted the shiny sticker of a title, and where sensible groups went "No, that's not what it does." and didn't give it to them. (This is why our requirements have a "Must complete these identified criteria, but also in the judgement of the senior degrees, be ready for the work and commitment of the degree" focus. With a bit of experience, it's possible to see when that shift happens for people - and if it hasn't happened yet.)

There definitely are people who collect degrees, but ... they're going to pick whatever status symbol they spot, and I don't really want to encourage them in that. (Which is why when I talk about evaluating stuff, I talk about looking a lot more closely at what someone does and how they do it, than the titles they use.)

I think the question of internal and external titles is weird, because it's a very fuzzy line. So, the degrees mostly make sense in the context of my particular tradition (or people who are significantly familiar with the tradition).

But at the same time, I also interact (regularly!) online, and in the larger Pagan community, and I will say "I'm a third degree in my tradition, and senior active priestess these days."

But since my tradition is from Minnesota, and I'm not there anymore, there's limited context for it. I've been working through this with a new project in the Boston area, that means I'm working with four other people who are all fairly senior in their respective traditions. We've had two meetings, and I expect that we'll have a few more where we're all doing that dance of "So what does that mean for you." and doing the little two minute spiel of what X means in our context.

(The thing is, we're all senior people in our trads with experience of talking to people in other trads, so we are also all very "Oh, we are in that stage of the dance about this, we know the steps and why people are asking, and that's fine" about it. We all expect that calibration, and view it as a necessary thing and have some practice giving a thumbnail explanation.)

But I have absolutely run into people who are utterly offended that you don't give them praise and veneration for being a third (or whatever other title) in a tradition you've never heard of. I do not have much patience for those people.