(no subject)

[haptalaon]

These things are important to me because I have this sense of vocation, of wanting to be a community-builder or community leader or priest, so then I ask..."what does that actually look like?"

To distinguish this from merely my ego, I'm trying to repeatedly focus on "What are the services that people actually *want*?"

And like, that question is really hard to answer. Which makes me think, the role doesn't exist in paganism in quite the same way it does in other faiths.

I do have ideas for how to do this from a spirit perspective. That's comparatively easy: keep every festival, as if it was real, because it is, even if there's nobody watching. Keep the values/behaviors of the faith. Walk out among the woods frequently, as if it was my responsibility to keep these spaces hallowed, because it is.

And do it wearing a cape, because visibility.

But what do other pagans want? I try and imagine what I'd want from someone. I definitely want training, be that in getting better at magical skills, or in community-building skills. And I want well-run discussions, talks, or opportunities to grow what I'm doing with others. I don't know about group rituals. I've never been to a good one. But I like the idea of having people I meet up with on holy days, and for that relationship to be a long one. I want to feel like service to the spirits is more effective because there are more of us, be that more energy in rites, or more skills on a human level - like we are doing something important and of value. I like the idea of there being families; I feel somewhat icky about raising children in religions, but at the same time, I like the idea of it being part of life and the life of the community. I like the idea of having numbers, and having a relationship with a wider national or international community - being invested in something bigger than my solitary self.

So to express this, I mostly try and attend things & be a joiner and support initiatives already out there, and then create these opportunities myself. I don't know. One of my Christian friends, her parents got together with five or so others and founded their own church. It's now the dominant church in the area, with youth clubs and a physical church building. In the space of twenty years. Well, what I'd like to do is be part of something like that: something with longevity, and purpose, which strengthens its participants and enhances the magic and worship we can do by both numbers and infrastructure.

Comments

[finch]

I like the idea of group rituals but some sort of kid-friendly is a must purely for practical reasons. If I could find a pagan group locally that did kid-friendly events and had a leader I felt I could trust I'd be pretty into that. The thing I miss having is someone I who could do the "counseling" part, I think.

[haptalaon]

Me too. It was very difficult when we got married, trying to find someone who had a sense of Spiritual Authority, rather than just some bloke. I get that any priest is Just Some Bloke, a person whom we invest with special characteristics because he's wearing a magical hat. Still, there are times in ones life where that kind of thing is necessary, and marriage was one of them.

I would guess that the lack of kid-friendly is - among other reasons - lingering fear about pagans "corrupting children". The satanic panic goes deep: covens accepting children are opening themselves to more trouble, if trouble comes knocking. Additionally, the pagan value of not indoctrinating people into religion. Finally, a lot of pagan leaders simply not wanting to - because children need additional planning, or because they simply don't like children or know much about them.

But I agree: religion is, for most people, a family thing, and it plays a role in the whole life of people and communities. It's a bit bizzare for the Pagan standard to be "no children", with kid-friendly being the exception. And it's absolutely a barrier for people with children, who then can't participate due to practical concerns.

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I'm trying to think about my Future Self Who Leads Local Rituals, and how I feel about the presence of children. I actually redesigned my wedding around kids, because it was important for them to be there and happy: we were married outside, provided lots of lawn games, had no dress code, and explicitly told parents and kids that if they wanted to wander off that was fine. No sitting in uncomfortable clothes at my wedding!

So, I would be very on board for things like children attending walks and meals. But I think I would feel a bit weird about doing the invocation to Pan with children there. I don't know why. I suppose that fear of Doing Religion To Children in a way they cannot fully consent to. It's one thing to invite children to a springtime walk and craft afternoon; quite another to start talking to them about god. Perhaps that's a discomfort I should get over? No other faith seems to have this problem...

[finch]

I don't even necessarily need the kid to be included in the ritual, though that's nice too. But like, we started going to the Universalist Unitarian church because they had someone who watched the very small kids during services. I just want to feel like I don't have to spend a lot of money to attend any religious event at all, and hiring a sitter for a few hours where I am is a minimum of like $15 an hour.

[haptalaon]

My friend is very involved in socialist organising, and their group always has a child-minder available. They even have some books on the importance of childcare provision to activism, and the way that having children can bar people from participation unless your event/campaign/group takes this into account

[annofowlshire]

I definitely think about my son (and other children we may have) and whether or not he should be “raised pagan.” The best I’ve come up with is that I will raise him around paganism, because as finch says, it’s practical when you have a child that you take them with you to events (not that I go to events...). But it’s his choice whether or not to participate. There won’t be pressure.

That said, we do want to raise him to have a positive relationship with nature, whether or not he wants to get involved in the metaphysical aspects—and a lot of that is just leading by example. His father is not into the metaphysical aspects, so he can see both sides I suppose.

As for community building and such—a lot of pagans I know come from other organized religions in which they had a bad relationship, and that’s not necessarily looking for order, organization, and or a set of rules when they embrace paganism— even though it’s nice to find someone with the same general worldview to chat with.

[haptalaon]

Endorsed.

The reality is this: other religions grow by including/incorporating/indoctrinating children from a young age. The more children you do this with, the more of them grow up deeply rooted in your faith; and that's what leads to lovely community religious environments which are truly communities in the ancient sense. Five or six or fifteen families, growing together. Not just adults spending money on their voluntary weekend hobby. But creating a village within a village, of old people and babies and everyone in between, sharing the work of life, challenges and successes, resources, and so on.

As you say, these contexts are some of the places where religion can be at its most fucked up and destructive. So it's good we don't do this, and you're right that bad relationships with this kind of religion is a driver for people to join "alternative/countercultural religions", and this is a thing worth celebrating as a Pagan characteristic.

But still...I have a massive longing for Amish-style communities, and I even have warm feelings about like, Three Wives One Husband (which is set in a Mormon village established very recently), even knowing what I do about how misogynist and controlling isolated Christian sects tend to be. I don't have a great relationship with my family. So, I think that's the appeal of intentional communities: that one could create a support structure, and in my imagination, it's a support structure which doesn't have these failings.

Paganism is, I think, one of the easiest religions to raise a child in, because we tend not to be dogmatic or punishing with threats of hell and sin, and quite open to people having individual relationships with the divine. Paganism can just be...going for a lot of walks. Inviting your child to garden with you. Watching nature documentaries.

(But that's not to underplay how colossally messed up Paganism can be around kids; I know a couple of horrible, high-profile examples, primarily to do with sex-centric Pagan traditions. And actually, one example of this I read about recently was a very good take on The Wicker Man, a film in which the pagan islanders are generally taken to be counter-cultural in contrast to the outsider policeman's fusty Christianity. The author points out that, although Summerisle is unconventional, its sexual morality is in fact profoundly traditional & focused on controlling teen female sexuality in a messed up way:

https://www.room207press.com/2019/08/neopagans-neoreactionaries-and-folk.html

Now obvs, a dumb horror film is not Real Paganism, and is probably influenced more by the creator's interpretation of what pagans do than any reality. Nontheless, it isn't entirely off the mark. There's a handful of 70s-era/free-love Pagan sources which talk about celebrating first menstruation, or understanding children as sexual beings, or simply bringing children into environments where the tradition is centered around sexual polarity and...it's a mess. It's a mess in exactly the same ways that Christian traditions obsessing about fertility and sex are a mess. That's the bits children need to be kept away from, at all costs.)




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[annofowlshire]

Yeah, the messed up stuff was why I avoided certain pagan groups in my area when I was a younger person exploring my new (or at least, finally named) spirituality and went it on my own.

Regarding raising people in religion to propagate the religion—I do often (semi-)joke at my more progressive/enlightened friends that if only the problematic (in religion, culture, etc.) folks are the ones having children then we’re always going to be outnumbered. (Before anyone yells at me, I am totally pro- whatever your choice regarding children. But it’s a legit observation.)